Max says ' Are you nuts Mum'

[Sue Edwards]

So much for the controlled meeting with Max and the rottie next door. Bob holds Max well away from rottie held by owner, rottie just sits waiting quietly for a biscuit and Max starts screaming as I approach to give said biscuit. He does stop with the screaming but is pacing on end of lead so we stop and I return to Max who is not going anywhere near the rottie at all and is looking at me as though I have lost the plot. Max is now hackles up with every dog we meet except the puppies who he continues to play with. It's back to basics for us with him again and I suspect rotties are on a list now of animals to avoid added to ginger cats who scratch eyes! Max is tail wagging whilst barking with hackles raised but the other dogs are submissive to him so he clearly is giving off the back off buster signals and I am keeping him away from lunging distance from othe dogs until we can ( fingers crossed) get this reaction under control. Back to Auntie June's clicker and reward which worked very well with the cars in round 2. All contributions on how to get this sorted gratefully received.

[Tiffani H]

Sorry it didn't work out I'll leave advice for people who have more experience with this, but don't give up straight away. It may take several uneventful meetings with rotties before he starts to feel more comfortable around them. on the other hand, you don't want to stress him out needlessly, so it'll definitely be a balancing act.

[Chris]

Well if it helps, Holly was attacked by a male malamute a few years back. Rossi saw what happened and had malamute on his mind at the time Roy managed to grab Rossi, Holly was oblivious to what went on Malamute was stunned I will leave the rest to your imagination
So Rossi then decides he hates huskies, mals etc. My friend has a mal bitch and he loves her even when she tells him off so it can work. You just need to tread carefully.

[Lisa Coull]

You'll get there with careful, controlled desensitising.

Just a thought, I wonder if it would have been better had you been holding Max and Bob had treated the rottie? He may have perceived that you were in danger?

It might also be worth attending one of the Good Buddy Days oraganised by a very good trainer & behaviourist I know - Emma and Mark go regularly. I think I'll be going to the next one as well - they are in Rochdale. I can PM you the details if like?

[Muriel]

have you been using Flower Essences? They can help work on those emotions. Star of Bethlehem is the first to come to mind.

[Sue Edwards]

I would love the information on the Rochdale trainer, Max does need to get over this, at 18 months he should be capable. Bob had tried first and Max ignored the rottie until he got closer then started backing off and screaming, so we left it until a few days later and I tried it with similar results.

Will try some essences, did use walnut on the last occasion and by the look of the rottie he could have done with some too! Also doing some more training with Max to attempt to reduce him feeling he is guarding me, he does less of the guarding and protection the more commands I give to him. I know I am completely biased, but Max is a lovely gentle natured lad and very sensitive to tone and facial expressions, I really don't want this lovely side of him going because of one horrible incident.

[Fogdog]

Sue,
the clue to initial desensitising to type/breed lies in Chris's post: Cherchez la femme!

Find an amenable lady Rottie [we asked our vet if he'd be kind and let any nice lady dog owners know our 'phone number for a meet and he found two - one of whom we knew on walks, but didn't know their number!] and arrange to meet somewhere open. No leads. Let the lady do the talking and if he'll play with her you're past the first hurdle of see-black-and-tan = Try and make it a fun occasion for all of you.... nice day, nice walk, treats.... perhaps drink together afterwards - the whole ambience and aftermath has to be full of good vibes.

I'd aim to do that a couple of times with just Max, then introduce our Geriatric Pin-Up. If he fouls up the friendship, Max may just see that for himself! It can't be bad, either way.
When Max is comfy with the see black-and-tan and doesn't assume instant posture of defensive aggression/tail wagging (which can still be defensive! no all tail movement is totally agreeable) then, and only then, can you introduce
Rotties of the male sort..... and even then I'd aim to start with a neutered one!

[Sue Edwards]

Great idea, I will see if there are any local lady rotties with nice dispositions. The sad part of next door it they want a pet and a guard dog and have ended up with a confused nice dog with attack instincts which are rewarded 50% of the time, not a good mix for any dog! Gil is such a smoothie with the ladies that they are all happy to meet him, the little collie lady across the road comes out half way through the cat flap to meet Gil on his morning ramble. Max is watching and learning, I am sure!

[Cressy]

Sue - I had an issue with male rotties and Freddy. Fred was very aggressive towards male rotties from the moment he came home (he was raised in a rottweiler breeding kennel and the main stud was a very strong male who had obviously intimidated Fred for 13 months). I did get to the point that I could walk Fred near to Rotties on lead but it took a long time.

TBH I would do your level best to avoid Rotties for a while and just ensure Max gets good learning experiences from other dogs of both sexes and sizes. Let him relearn confidence and when you do have to be near to a rottie keep as calm as you can, keep the lead relaxed and reward heavily any non-reaction. Don't make Max move in too close and just keep shoving sausage down his gob (not really talking to him at the time) and moving him past the rottie in a way he doesn't have to come too close or make eye contact. Parallel walking is a good ploy once you are able to manage him nearer dogs he isn't comfy with - I can talk you through that if you want.

Now adding in Mr Geriatric........ my best advice is don't involve him in any of the scenarios where you are teaching Max to be relaxed. Much as I loved Mugi I also know he was the instigator of the aggression between Brice and himself and he also would colour how the other dogs reacted around new dogs if he didn't like the look. He wasn't my 'Boss Dog' but he could influence a lot especially negatively - to look at Mugi he was MR "I Love Everyone" but he was also a strong dog who had some very overt warning body language the others picked up on. The oldies are lush but can be like Victor Meldrew's and be very much the Mad Old Neighbour from Hell - don't underestimate the negative power of the oldies and their manipulation .

[Muriel]

Walnut is for change. What it seems you're needing to address first is shock/trauma, then possibly fear or aggression, whichever it is.....

[Sue Edwards]

I shall get some tomorrow Muriel. Thanks for the link Sue, I have pm'd you and think you are right about Gil, I am walking Max on some of the walks on his own, we have 2 ways of getting out of the front of the house so Gil doesn't get involved each time. Hopefully this will change the dynamic too as Max needs guidance still ie bikes, horses etc. Gil ignores most things except other dogs on all walks, doesn't really like being stroked when he is out either, such is the concentration on sniffs.

Gil has us on toast, chief manipulator he is. He gets away with murder, like taking all the fresh bedding off the rads to make a sofa bed to watch cartoons on, walking past the mugs of tea and sticking his tongue in from the side of his mouth and carrying on walking. He stands his ground, all 4 legs hard to the floor, like an over stressed point when he sees other males and stares at them, I suspect this is part of him being entire and liking the ladies. I am sure he adds in a 'oi fatso' to the rottie as well! He is such a donkey of a dog he is head and shoulders above most dogs and still has all his teeth which he flashes.

Max met a speed biker today with funny gloves on ( look like lobster claws) plus dark googles and space helmet, Max did sniff and made a fuss but then stood back, sat down and howled at the biker until he took off his googles. I think Max thought he was an alien, fortunately he was a dog lover and was brilliant with Max.

[June Cutler]

You were too near to the 'danger' and that caused a reaction. If you meet the Rottie, keep a good distance and click and reward for calm behaviour. If Max shows any reaction at all, take a step backwards until you reach the 'cut off' point where he's happy. I really hope you can sort this problem out soon.
I'm sure there is a thread on desensitisation the the forum.

[Sue Edwards]

Thanks June, I think the mistake I made was to get the car chasing stuff sorted and stopping clicker/reward. It's back to basics and Max is calming down and watching me for some more instructions but is still nervy so we are going to do some off lead work with him in a local quiet field. Without the distraction of Gil ( who he does 'look after') and having to work for some tasty rewards hopefully will get him to start focussing again. We have even started to redo the 'watch me' command and all the other familiar puppy training stuff.